somehow there's something -- that you could do some kind of legalization thing that would -- >> rose: well, that's a great question because that is really thinking outside the box and it's a very controversial idea to open up trade with certain species. i think it's something that has to be looked at because i think there are many methods and i think it's very important to keep an open mind, the idea of cutting off a rhino's horn with a chain saw. no one wants to do that, but that may save the rhino. and that sounds so horrific. the idea of having a legal trade -- >> we saw a bit of that in lesley's film, too, cutting off something, didn't we? >> well, we were engraving, which is a similar defacing the tortoise so they can -- >> rose: in order to be able to -- >> well, in order to hopefully reduce their value so if someone came upon one they might say, hey, we want to take this because it's marked.